AUGUST 5, 2014 12:12PM
Iraq's Yazidis in Danger From ISIS Persecution
(source: Safin Hamed/AFP)
ISIS appears to be targeting the Yazidi, an ethnic group with its own distinct religion. According to this Global Post article, ISIS has overrun the town of Sinjar, an area heavily populated by followers of the sect, who have now fled to the city of Lalish (location of a Yazidi holy site). Reports of executions and forced conversions are coming in, and 40 children are reported dead. Shia Muslims are also being targeted in this effort.
Someday I'd love to understand the forces that shape this type of murderous religious fanaticism. Is it poverty? Lingering effects of post-colonialism? Is it more to do with ethnic-racial resentments? Or is it really fevered, unquestioning devotion to a supernatural ideal?
The Yazidi are particularly vulnerable to hatred and misunderstanding. Their religion predates Islam and combines elements of Zorastrianism, Sufism and Abrahamic religions. It is also secretive and does not accept converts; followers are not permitted to marry outside the faith.
Most notably, they've received the big fat label of "devil worshipper" because few care to truly understand their theology.
One of the most important figures in their belief system is the angel Melek Taus, symbolized by a peacock. Melek Taus was that angel that rebelled against God. But the Yazidi view that act, and Melek Taus himself, as benign. It's said that Melek Taus's tears extinguished the very fires of hell!
If one can trust Wikipedia, the Yazidi believe that "the source of evil is in the heart and spirit of humans themselves, not in Melek Taus."
Of course, because Melek Taus's actions sound like another story we all know and love, he's been branded as "Shaytan" among Muslims and Satan among Christians. Yazidis have been the target of numerous persecutions as far back as 18th century under the Ottoman Empire. In 2007 and 2009 they suffered suicide bomber attacks.
In the West, the misinformation about the Yazidi religion was spread by scholars who imposed their own paradigms. Occultists, such as the Theosophical Society, liked to throw in "The Devil" and "Satan" when writing about the Yezidi. One writer even claimed a secret society of them exists in London, "The Order of the Peacock Angel." Again, if you believe Wikipedia, this writer is the only known source for this group's existence; thus, until I stumble across actual proof I'm comfortable claiming this is just so much pulp fiction.
Then there's good old paranoid night-sweating H.P. Lovecraft, father of horror lit and rabid racist and hater of seafood. In his story "The Horror at Red Hook," the villains are of course dark foreign immigrants belonging to "the Yezidi clan of devil-worshippers." In a letter to Clark Ashton Smith he writes:
The idea that black magic exists in secret today,
or that hellish antique rites still exist in obscurity, is one that I
have used and shall use again. When you see my new tale "The Horror at
Red Hook", you will see what use I make of the idea in connexion with
the gangs of young loafers & herds of evil-looking foreigners that one sees everywhere in New York.[3]
It strikes me that HPL would feel right at home in the USA of 2014. I don't know why, exactly. See www.yeziditruth.org, a Yezidi human rights organzation. They link to several relief and human rights organizations, and ask that people contact them to alert them to the current situation and prioritize help for the Iraqi Yazidi community.
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Comments
It was my understanding
that the Yazidis believed that God is too busy to be bothered with
looking after the earth day-to-day, so he assigns his assistants
rotating duty of looking after things. Each one serves for about 12,000
years then passes it on to the next. Satan (Shaitan) is just one of
the assistants and is the one stuck with the job right now.
This is my recollection from reading Adventures in Arabia which was written in the 20's. The author went to the Yazidis' holy mountain and met their leader.
This is my recollection from reading Adventures in Arabia which was written in the 20's. The author went to the Yazidis' holy mountain and met their leader.
Hi Mark - I'm not sure
how accurate that source is (but then again, I only went by the bits I
could find online). If I'm not mistaken the Yazidis aren't allowed to
say "Shaitan" or Satan. There are 7 angels working for God though, of
which Melek Taus is their leader.
The author - William
Seabrook - and his wife were touring the region shortly after the end of
WW I, and the fall of the Ottoman empire. The British and French had
already established their protectorates.
They started in Damascus. He spent a few months with a wealthy Bedouin tribe as a guest of the sheik. Then they motored across the desert to Baghdad. It was there that he heard about the Yazidis and found a guide (a local archaeologist/anthropologist who had contacts with the Yazidis. It was a short trip, but he was open minded and not condemning and tried to learn as much as he could while he was there. He did describe Melek Taus and the peacock idol. He did not say that the Yazidis worshiped Satan, just that he is the angel currently in charge of the earth.
He actually spends more time on the Dervishes and the Druze.
They started in Damascus. He spent a few months with a wealthy Bedouin tribe as a guest of the sheik. Then they motored across the desert to Baghdad. It was there that he heard about the Yazidis and found a guide (a local archaeologist/anthropologist who had contacts with the Yazidis. It was a short trip, but he was open minded and not condemning and tried to learn as much as he could while he was there. He did describe Melek Taus and the peacock idol. He did not say that the Yazidis worshiped Satan, just that he is the angel currently in charge of the earth.
He actually spends more time on the Dervishes and the Druze.
Thanks for the info. The Druze are another interesting sect.
If I remember correctly, he went on a raid with the Bedouins. The sheik gave him a white racing camel when he left.
The Dervishes were forthcoming in explaining their practices and beliefs. The Druze - not so much. He learned as much as he was able and was introduced to a Druze religious scholar who listened to his speculations but would not confirm them. He was very interested in trying to get to the truth about the golden calf.
As for the Yazidis, he did go to their temple at the top of their holy mountain and spoke with the head priest. But, much of what he learned was from his guide.
The Dervishes were forthcoming in explaining their practices and beliefs. The Druze - not so much. He learned as much as he was able and was introduced to a Druze religious scholar who listened to his speculations but would not confirm them. He was very interested in trying to get to the truth about the golden calf.
As for the Yazidis, he did go to their temple at the top of their holy mountain and spoke with the head priest. But, much of what he learned was from his guide.
You know Tolstoys book
War and Peace was originally going to be called War what's it good for?
Absolutely nobody except those who profit from it.
Thanks had not known any of this. r.
@Algis - say it again.
@Mark - my guide in Israel back in '95 knew a lot of Druze Arabs, but naturally he knew absolutely nothing about their secret codes and culture.
@Jonathan - thanks for stopping by.
@Mark - my guide in Israel back in '95 knew a lot of Druze Arabs, but naturally he knew absolutely nothing about their secret codes and culture.
@Jonathan - thanks for stopping by.
I've been busy for the
last week and haven't caught the news much less OS, but I saw the news
today and like you went to Wikipedia to find out who the Yazidis
were/are.
I was struck by a couple of odd similarities (despite all of the differences) to Biblical doctrine.
Of course, their principal angel of the seven is called by themselves "Shaytan" from which was derived the Islamic Djinn
(or genie) (or demon) of the same name and horrible rep (the Yasidi pre-date Islam).
There is a little known (and under-cited) reference in the Christian Library (Biblia) book of Revelations 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
And ancillary to your point Matt. 15:"18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." (Sorry Flip Wilson).
I've mused at times prior regarding Isaiah's reference in 6:1 to "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Thinking that it might be a more apt description of what the Mayans and Incans envisioned as the feathered serpent Kukulcan, now maybe as the Yasidis imagined "the Peacock Angel".
They all saw something and opined, but remember this is food for thought not dogma.
It is truly and tragically evil (uh beheading children) what the Sunni inspired Jihadists known as ISIS are doing to the Yasidi and the Chaldean Christians in Iraq and the Syrian and Coptic churches in Syria.
It is the same hateful convert or die insanity that has been pent up for a thousand years.
I still believe that America should stay out of the middle-east mess but sometimes like these times it's hard to resist the desire to just smite 'em.
I was struck by a couple of odd similarities (despite all of the differences) to Biblical doctrine.
Of course, their principal angel of the seven is called by themselves "Shaytan" from which was derived the Islamic Djinn
(or genie) (or demon) of the same name and horrible rep (the Yasidi pre-date Islam).
There is a little known (and under-cited) reference in the Christian Library (Biblia) book of Revelations 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
And ancillary to your point Matt. 15:"18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." (Sorry Flip Wilson).
I've mused at times prior regarding Isaiah's reference in 6:1 to "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Thinking that it might be a more apt description of what the Mayans and Incans envisioned as the feathered serpent Kukulcan, now maybe as the Yasidis imagined "the Peacock Angel".
They all saw something and opined, but remember this is food for thought not dogma.
It is truly and tragically evil (uh beheading children) what the Sunni inspired Jihadists known as ISIS are doing to the Yasidi and the Chaldean Christians in Iraq and the Syrian and Coptic churches in Syria.
It is the same hateful convert or die insanity that has been pent up for a thousand years.
I still believe that America should stay out of the middle-east mess but sometimes like these times it's hard to resist the desire to just smite 'em.
Hi Fred,
Thanks for your comments. Again, my superficial research says that Yezidi never refer to Melek Taus as "Shaitan". Also some interesting thoughts on comparative mythology (Melek Taus/Kukulkan-Quetzalcoatl). That's worth exploring.
And like you, I have my days where I'd like to see ISIS slaughtered to the last man. And yet, the havoc that US adventurism has brought to the Mideast tells me otherwise.
Thanks for your comments. Again, my superficial research says that Yezidi never refer to Melek Taus as "Shaitan". Also some interesting thoughts on comparative mythology (Melek Taus/Kukulkan-Quetzalcoatl). That's worth exploring.
And like you, I have my days where I'd like to see ISIS slaughtered to the last man. And yet, the havoc that US adventurism has brought to the Mideast tells me otherwise.
I don't know anything
but what I read in the Wikipeia article, but I re-read it and can see
where the confusion lies, they worship the "Peacock angel Malek Taus" as
the sort of the pope of 7 archangels.
The main diff without much of a distinction is that the Yazidis consider that archangel to be good and most everyone else bad.
You may be right about them demonizing the name Shaytan as unspeakable, I thought that I read somewhere that they wouldn't speak said name for it's "holiness" to them, but I still don't want to see them destroyed , they keep to themselves and don't bother anyone...a lot like lemurs.
The main diff without much of a distinction is that the Yazidis consider that archangel to be good and most everyone else bad.
You may be right about them demonizing the name Shaytan as unspeakable, I thought that I read somewhere that they wouldn't speak said name for it's "holiness" to them, but I still don't want to see them destroyed , they keep to themselves and don't bother anyone...a lot like lemurs.
Fred, if you come across that source I'd be interested in taking a look.
"Neither is it
permitted to us to pronounce the name of Shaitan because it is the name
of our God, nor any name resembling this, such as Kitan, Sharr, Shatt;
nor any vocable resembling mal'un, [cursed one], na'l, or the like".
See Malek Taus in Wikipedia.
See Malek Taus in Wikipedia.
"Neither is it
permitted to us to pronounce the name of Shaitan because it is the name
of our God, nor any name resembling this, such as Kitan, Sharr, Shatt;
nor any vocable resembling mal'un, [cursed one], na'l, or the like".
See Malek Taus in Wikipedia.
See Malek Taus in Wikipedia.
"Someday I'd love to understand the forces that shape this type of murderous religious fanaticism."
When you find out, let me know as I haven't a clue. I'm pretty allergic to all religions period, so the murderous and fanaticism parts are just incomprehensible bonuses for my WTF? eyeball rolling.
When you find out, let me know as I haven't a clue. I'm pretty allergic to all religions period, so the murderous and fanaticism parts are just incomprehensible bonuses for my WTF? eyeball rolling.
I ran across this on CNN this am, thought it strangely congruent with yesterdays comments.
"Way up in the trees live the Yazidis
Yazidichi Yazidichi oh so soft and cuddly
They love to laugh and play and have a happy happy day
Yazidichi Yazidichi oh so soft and cuddly
Yazidi mean happiness!
Oh oh! But the Grumplins very mean to the Yazidis
Everyday they tease, try to catch and squeeze
So back up in the trees go the Yazidis
Chi chi chi chi Yazidichi means happiness!"
Also check out the Black rock the "cornerstone" of the Kabaa, the holiest shrine of Islam held to hem from the days of Adam and Eve, pay special attention to the links in the page, and re: Iram.
I have little idea what the significance might be, but it's stuff that I actually never knew before and very intriguing.
"Way up in the trees live the Yazidis
Yazidichi Yazidichi oh so soft and cuddly
They love to laugh and play and have a happy happy day
Yazidichi Yazidichi oh so soft and cuddly
Yazidi mean happiness!
Oh oh! But the Grumplins very mean to the Yazidis
Everyday they tease, try to catch and squeeze
So back up in the trees go the Yazidis
Chi chi chi chi Yazidichi means happiness!"
Also check out the Black rock the "cornerstone" of the Kabaa, the holiest shrine of Islam held to hem from the days of Adam and Eve, pay special attention to the links in the page, and re: Iram.
I have little idea what the significance might be, but it's stuff that I actually never knew before and very intriguing.
VA - alas there are those things we'll never answer. But I would love to know. Especially with ISIS.
On another note, it is great to see you my friend!
On another note, it is great to see you my friend!
Fred: umm, wow. Yhats a
very bizarre use of the theme song from the Monchichi cartoon of the
80s. I doubt the Yezidis find their plight quite so cute...
Re: the Kabaa, what link are you referring to? The wiki page?
Re: the Kabaa, what link are you referring to? The wiki page?
Yes and yes, I likened them to harmless little lemurs, then saw that later.
Yes and then follow all the links.
It may just coincide with some extreme weirdness, especially if it "whispers" to them.
Keepin' my Jesus freak clothes handy!
Yes and then follow all the links.
It may just coincide with some extreme weirdness, especially if it "whispers" to them.
Keepin' my Jesus freak clothes handy!
Hm, well, I don't understand exactly what you mean, but I did find this bit very interesting. Love me some Karen Armstrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba
In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was at some point dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that probably represented the days of the year. According to Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba was itself previously addressed as a female deity.[18] Circumambulation was often performed naked by male pilgrims,[19] and linked to ancient fertility rites.[20] By Muhammad's day, the Kaaba was venerated as the shrine of Allah, the High God. Once a year, tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or pagan, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj, marking the widespread conviction that Allah was the same deity worshiped by monotheists.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba
In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was at some point dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that probably represented the days of the year. According to Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba was itself previously addressed as a female deity.[18] Circumambulation was often performed naked by male pilgrims,[19] and linked to ancient fertility rites.[20] By Muhammad's day, the Kaaba was venerated as the shrine of Allah, the High God. Once a year, tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or pagan, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj, marking the widespread conviction that Allah was the same deity worshiped by monotheists.[21]
Yeah, but it's the rock
itself that's interesting - I'll give you a further hint read
Revelation 12:7-12 then consider the significance of a big bad black
rock that supposedly fell 6,000 years ago and has been the center of a
whole lot of trouble ever since.
Try this horrible speculation on for size , it actually has legs!
I still wonder if like in "The Puppet Masters" the victims have to be in close contact with the puppeteer at least once.
Or consider that "The Black Stone" is said to be the chief cornerstone of the Kabaa, the antithesis of the white pebble Jesus Christ the self-described "Chief Cornerstone" of His church gives to His Saints.
Solves a bunch of loose theological points anyway.
Try this horrible speculation on for size , it actually has legs!
I still wonder if like in "The Puppet Masters" the victims have to be in close contact with the puppeteer at least once.
Or consider that "The Black Stone" is said to be the chief cornerstone of the Kabaa, the antithesis of the white pebble Jesus Christ the self-described "Chief Cornerstone" of His church gives to His Saints.
Solves a bunch of loose theological points anyway.
Ah, in other words, the
popular evangelical trope that Muhammad is the antichrist. A pretty
low and convenient way to demonize Islam. You'll forgive me if I won't
entertain that nonsense.
May I recommend the book By Elaine Pagels?
http://amzn.to/1vweeuJ
It's an excellent overview on how Revelations mostly serves political purposes.
May I recommend the book By Elaine Pagels?
http://amzn.to/1vweeuJ
It's an excellent overview on how Revelations mostly serves political purposes.
Sorry, the book's title is " Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation"
All we really need to
know about the Yazidis is that someone is trying to slaughter them for
religious reasons and that they don't appear to be aggressive to those
around them. That's enough.
You want to know about fanaticism? In modern times, I can give you a clue about that. I'm not sure what I'm about to say is universal, but there are a lot of instances where it's true. Some of this I got from an article in The Chronicle of Higher Education a few years ago which I wish I could find.
One of the most identifiable characteristics of terrorist populations (terrorism often goes with fanaticism, so it's useful here) is that they tend to be humiliated. What humiliates them varies. In Osama Bin Laden's case, what pushed him over the edge was having a large American (non-Muslim) military force on sacred Saudi soil, particularly not following strict Muslim mores.
In looking at a lot of Arab populations, you see a geographic region that has stagnated badly. Aside from oil, there is less economic growth there than anywhere in the world. So you have a whole lot of young men feeling inadequate. If you can't feel superior or important in terms of money, position, education, occupation, achievements, where can you feel superior? Religion. You can be more observant, and you can take it as your mission to make others more observant and to punish those who won't become more observant, in the name of God. If the arena you're in isn't giving you sufficient status, change the arena.
In the case of Israel, a group of Palestinians feels humiliated by the loss of Israel, but in this case on religious grounds. On secular grounds, a lot of Palestinians would just as soon get on with it, make money, and live their lives, including a lot of Gazans. But this is on religious grounds, and so this population is a lot more intractable. Like Bin Laden's humiliation, this isn't based on personal humiliation (both Bin Laden and a lot of Hamas leaders are educated and initially well off) so much as what is perceived as a sort of national humiliation.
Humiliation is a very potent force for anger. If you look at the end of the First World War, you might be aware that most peace treaties are signed in palaces. The British and French instead made the Germans sign a peace treaty in a railroad car. You can see how humiliating the Germans worked out, and you can tell how important it was because the Germans made the French sign their WWII treaty in the same railroad car. The US at the end of WWII took the exact opposite stance and we've still got allies nearly seventy years later.
I can't tell you how exactly this led to ISIS. I can tell you it has probably exacerbated the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Neither side is sensitive to how to defuse the other, in fact both sides are almost uniquely insensitive to the other in this case. Not that I think the Israelis could defuse the members of Hamas but Israel could certainly defuse their influence on the general population more effectively.
You value the scarce commodity. To Israel, that's safety. (Don't ever forget who the Israelis are and what they went through to become Israelis, in case you think the safety concern is totally unreasonable given the military imbalance.) To Palestinians, that's respect. The Israelis may be hated but they are extremely respected - no one in the world doubts that they're capable. That's a country that is in some respect known for its lack of manners, and I mean this internally as well. They tend to view manners as cosmetic and not important. And so, they aren't the best population to be, say, manning checkpoints through which very sensitive populations pass, populations that view etiquette as important, even historically, but even more so when in an occupied position.
For Israelis, it's safety. I don't think the Palestinian population is actively afraid that the Israelis are going to decide to wipe them out, though the Israelis are absolutely afraid that Hamas in particular would wipe them out given the opportunity. Like the Israelis are exacerbating the conflict by pushing Palestinian respect buttons, the Palestinians are exacerbating the conflict by pushing Israeli safety buttons. If the Palestinian independence movement were a non-violent resistance movement, this whole thing would have been over decades ago.
I can't tell you how these factors produced an organization like ISIS that was rejected by Al Qaida for being too extreme. I think if we were able to get a close enough look, we'd find them though.
You want to know about fanaticism? In modern times, I can give you a clue about that. I'm not sure what I'm about to say is universal, but there are a lot of instances where it's true. Some of this I got from an article in The Chronicle of Higher Education a few years ago which I wish I could find.
One of the most identifiable characteristics of terrorist populations (terrorism often goes with fanaticism, so it's useful here) is that they tend to be humiliated. What humiliates them varies. In Osama Bin Laden's case, what pushed him over the edge was having a large American (non-Muslim) military force on sacred Saudi soil, particularly not following strict Muslim mores.
In looking at a lot of Arab populations, you see a geographic region that has stagnated badly. Aside from oil, there is less economic growth there than anywhere in the world. So you have a whole lot of young men feeling inadequate. If you can't feel superior or important in terms of money, position, education, occupation, achievements, where can you feel superior? Religion. You can be more observant, and you can take it as your mission to make others more observant and to punish those who won't become more observant, in the name of God. If the arena you're in isn't giving you sufficient status, change the arena.
In the case of Israel, a group of Palestinians feels humiliated by the loss of Israel, but in this case on religious grounds. On secular grounds, a lot of Palestinians would just as soon get on with it, make money, and live their lives, including a lot of Gazans. But this is on religious grounds, and so this population is a lot more intractable. Like Bin Laden's humiliation, this isn't based on personal humiliation (both Bin Laden and a lot of Hamas leaders are educated and initially well off) so much as what is perceived as a sort of national humiliation.
Humiliation is a very potent force for anger. If you look at the end of the First World War, you might be aware that most peace treaties are signed in palaces. The British and French instead made the Germans sign a peace treaty in a railroad car. You can see how humiliating the Germans worked out, and you can tell how important it was because the Germans made the French sign their WWII treaty in the same railroad car. The US at the end of WWII took the exact opposite stance and we've still got allies nearly seventy years later.
I can't tell you how exactly this led to ISIS. I can tell you it has probably exacerbated the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Neither side is sensitive to how to defuse the other, in fact both sides are almost uniquely insensitive to the other in this case. Not that I think the Israelis could defuse the members of Hamas but Israel could certainly defuse their influence on the general population more effectively.
You value the scarce commodity. To Israel, that's safety. (Don't ever forget who the Israelis are and what they went through to become Israelis, in case you think the safety concern is totally unreasonable given the military imbalance.) To Palestinians, that's respect. The Israelis may be hated but they are extremely respected - no one in the world doubts that they're capable. That's a country that is in some respect known for its lack of manners, and I mean this internally as well. They tend to view manners as cosmetic and not important. And so, they aren't the best population to be, say, manning checkpoints through which very sensitive populations pass, populations that view etiquette as important, even historically, but even more so when in an occupied position.
For Israelis, it's safety. I don't think the Palestinian population is actively afraid that the Israelis are going to decide to wipe them out, though the Israelis are absolutely afraid that Hamas in particular would wipe them out given the opportunity. Like the Israelis are exacerbating the conflict by pushing Palestinian respect buttons, the Palestinians are exacerbating the conflict by pushing Israeli safety buttons. If the Palestinian independence movement were a non-violent resistance movement, this whole thing would have been over decades ago.
I can't tell you how these factors produced an organization like ISIS that was rejected by Al Qaida for being too extreme. I think if we were able to get a close enough look, we'd find them though.
ISIS is as hard line as
it gets. They are interested in a Caliphate which will encompass the
world. All other religions are a threat. That includes Christians, Jews,
and all Moderate Muslims, Budhists and all who do not convert to their
brand of Islam.
Mark Arabo:
Mark Paul Arabo is an American businessman and global humanitarian. He is the community proclaimed Chaldean leader and and the national spokesman for Iraqi Christians globally. Arabo is the President and CEO of the Neighborhood Market Association.
Att: Wikipedia
"They are systematically beheading children, and mothers and fathers. The world hasn't seen an evil like this for a generation. There's actually a park in Mosul that they've actually beheaded children and put their heads on a stick," Arabo told CNN's Jonathan Mann last week."
There were pictures. Fact or Fiction?
Mark Arabo:
Mark Paul Arabo is an American businessman and global humanitarian. He is the community proclaimed Chaldean leader and and the national spokesman for Iraqi Christians globally. Arabo is the President and CEO of the Neighborhood Market Association.
Att: Wikipedia
"They are systematically beheading children, and mothers and fathers. The world hasn't seen an evil like this for a generation. There's actually a park in Mosul that they've actually beheaded children and put their heads on a stick," Arabo told CNN's Jonathan Mann last week."
There were pictures. Fact or Fiction?
Kosh, thanks for
weighing in. I think you're right about humiliation and disempowerment
being a key element here. Again, not knowing the circumstances that led
to the rise of ISIS (and how annoying that their acronym has to evoke
that very cool Egyptian goddess), it's hard to comment, but I feel that
there's something missing from the equation, something that's cutting
them off from basic human empathy. Banality of evil? Who knows.
Re: "In the case of Israel, a group of Palestinians feels humiliated by the loss of Israel, but in this case on religious grounds. On secular grounds, a lot of Palestinians would just as soon get on with it, make money, and live their lives, including a lot of Gazans."
- Is it really that simple? Are Hamas religiously fanatic? The situation itself cripples the Palestinian economy and like it or not, the perception is that the fault lies with Israel. Too, it goes beyond humiliation for land lost; the conflict has caused death and sorrow for survivors, and that's always going to radicalize you and make you angry.
Re: "In the case of Israel, a group of Palestinians feels humiliated by the loss of Israel, but in this case on religious grounds. On secular grounds, a lot of Palestinians would just as soon get on with it, make money, and live their lives, including a lot of Gazans."
- Is it really that simple? Are Hamas religiously fanatic? The situation itself cripples the Palestinian economy and like it or not, the perception is that the fault lies with Israel. Too, it goes beyond humiliation for land lost; the conflict has caused death and sorrow for survivors, and that's always going to radicalize you and make you angry.
I know, Ande, just
awful. I can't make myself look at the news reports. I really do fear
for those minority populations in that area of Iraq.
CP,
Not quite that simple but close. If this were really all about land in a secular way, there would be way more conflict than there is now.
Yes, with Hamas it is religious. There's all sorts of evidence of that, up to and including their setting fire to a UN summer camp because it admitted girls. Also, why do you think the Egyptians won't deal with them? Why do you think there hasn't been a huge outcry over the war from Arab governments? Because these guys are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and the rest of the nations in the area are afraid of being overthrown by Islamicist movements, which they regard Hamas as being. We are looking at the bizarre situation of area Arab governments wanting Israel to win. If you want to know who they are, there's plenty of information available about their charter. There's also testimony from Gazan Christian sources who are none too happy with what's being forced down their throats.
If what they were really looking for was economic improvement, they've gone about this entirely backward, and I can't believe they're that stupid. If they wanted to improve the economy, why did they put approximately three million dollars' worth of desperately needed construction materials underground per tunnel? All the Israelis really want from Gaza is a serious commitment to stop trying to kill them. That's what would end the blockade and open the borders.
Not quite that simple but close. If this were really all about land in a secular way, there would be way more conflict than there is now.
Yes, with Hamas it is religious. There's all sorts of evidence of that, up to and including their setting fire to a UN summer camp because it admitted girls. Also, why do you think the Egyptians won't deal with them? Why do you think there hasn't been a huge outcry over the war from Arab governments? Because these guys are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and the rest of the nations in the area are afraid of being overthrown by Islamicist movements, which they regard Hamas as being. We are looking at the bizarre situation of area Arab governments wanting Israel to win. If you want to know who they are, there's plenty of information available about their charter. There's also testimony from Gazan Christian sources who are none too happy with what's being forced down their throats.
If what they were really looking for was economic improvement, they've gone about this entirely backward, and I can't believe they're that stupid. If they wanted to improve the economy, why did they put approximately three million dollars' worth of desperately needed construction materials underground per tunnel? All the Israelis really want from Gaza is a serious commitment to stop trying to kill them. That's what would end the blockade and open the borders.
You have used the
dreaded lie producing preface "in other words" to respond in a totally
twisted fashion to everything that I offered you. You, due to your
self-advertised penchant for gore and your links to Satanic titles,
don't get another chance with me.
Figure it all out for yourself and don't let me know how that's working out for you.
This frog wears the helmet of the hope of salvation crossing rivers, so scorpion-like attacks just don't work.
Figure it all out for yourself and don't let me know how that's working out for you.
This frog wears the helmet of the hope of salvation crossing rivers, so scorpion-like attacks just don't work.
You were doing just
fine till now, Fred. If you dont want people to assume what you mean,
then state what you mean without cryptic insinuations.
So long.
So long.
Kosh, forgot to distinguish that I wasnt talking about Hamas but rather the general Palestinian populace.
You'll find Yezidis in
Seabury Quinn's Jules Degrandin novel called "The Devil's Bride." They
were lumped in with the rest of the devil worshipers.
Thanks for the tip on that, Schopen. BTW where are you blogging these days? It's good to see a fellow horrorhead around here!
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